Short Attention Span Theatre presents...

Definitive stories for Doctor Who/Torchwood?

14th-May-2008 01:33 pm

jadesfire2808 got me thinking over on my post about

cesperanza's Stargate: Atlantis story "Written By The Victors" this morning. The point being, that she (and probably many others--hey, 460 links on del.icio.us must be some sort of indication) define that story as being "the SGA story - one of those absolute fandom-changers," which leads me to ponder, does Doctor Who have a fanfic story that could generally be considered the Doctor Who story? A story (or author) considered to be definitive for the fandom? Does Torchwood? Sarah Jane Adventures? Or do the spin-offs miss out on having such stories identified because of their association with the parent series?

In my opinion, I'm don't think there is one. But I can't figure out why.

jadesfire2808 theorizes that it could be something inherent within the British psyche: "when something/one does stand out from the rest, we tend to pick holes alongside being admiring. Jack wasn't wrong in 'Everything Changes': "I show you something fantastic. You find fault." It applies to all the British, not just the Welsh...".

Possibly it has something to do with the program's protracted run? Could the DW universe's canon and history be so diverse/complicated/accommodating(?) that no definitive can be named or agreed upon? I've never been closely associated with fanfic in the Star Trek universe, the only other fandom I can think of that compares with the DW universe in terms of series longevity. Does it claim definitive stories/authors where DW does not?

Or maybe, with the long book and audio lines associated with DW, have the definitive stories simply lost their 'fan' categorization? Certainly many of the DW authors were fan-ficcers long before the BBC ever commissioned the book line with Virgin, long before Big Finish started doing audio stories. Would 'Human Nature' or 'The Infinity Doctors' or 'Spare Parts' have been DW's 'Written By The Victors' had they not been published as official tie-ins?

What does everyone else think? Are there such stories, and I've just missed them? Something else to explain this lack in DW fandom?

Tags:doctor who, fandom, torchwood

Comments

14th-May-2008 06:58 pm (UTC)

dune_drd

I haven't found one yet, but then I'm no part of SG fandom and can in no way say what makes *the* story so special. I think it's the sheer volume of novels/fic/stories we get from fans *and* official sources that keeps fandom nicely diluted

14th-May-2008 08:07 pm (UTC)

nnwest

It's a good theory. It's certainly true that there is a plethora of stories, via official and unofficial avenues, to keep us busy right now. It makes me then wonder, what about the time before we had such wealth, that time when we only had the original televised stories? But then, that was also pre-widespread internet connection, back in the mists of time and mimeographed fanzines...

14th-May-2008 06:59 pm (UTC)

britgeekgrrl

I think there *are* definitive DW stories out there, but I doubt you could get any three randomly-selected fans to agree on what they are.

My two cents - whenever I want to introduce someone to DW, I pull out the following stories because I think they exemplify the series.

"Genesis of the Daleks"
"City of Death"
"The Caves of Androzani" (bit of a controversial choice there, I know)

As soon as I can afford a copy of "Survival", I'll be adding it to the list - cheeze and all, I still think it's a story that is v. iconic, although not as important as the first two, above. Indeed, sometimes, I just give 'em GotD and CoD and then move on to the new show.

For the new show, I'd pick "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" as *the* story but that's just my opinion. ;)

But, yeah, I think the major factor behind the issue that you're describing is, as you've mentioned, the sheer sprawling scope that is Doctor Who. Hundreds of hours of episodes, hundreds of books, audios, spinoffs, etc, etc. It's just too much material to allow a person to point out one thing and say "That's it!"

14th-May-2008 07:44 pm (UTC)

kaffyr

Perhaps with a venerable and multi-faceted fandom like DW - almost its own quasi-genre, one could argue - the one thing one could do is look for a core of iconic stories rather than one, or even two or three, stories. If you consider that kind of meta-search, it might be possible; ask, over a year or so, for people from all corners of Who fandom to list their top five stories. Grab all the resulting raw data and see what kind of Venn diagram overlaps might occur, and what such overlap-driven lists might reveal about fannish biases and imperatives.

14th-May-2008 08:27 pm (UTC)

nnwest

That sounds an awful lot like a grad school project. Lots of work! ;D

ETD: That icon is gorgeous! I like it lots!

Edited at 2008-05-14 08:28 pm (UTC)

14th-May-2008 09:15 pm (UTC)

kaffyr

Ah, I've never been to grad school, although I am old and ancient. I do, however, have a knack for figuring out complicated academic-sounding plans which I'm too lazy to undertake myself. Heh. And the icon is lovely, isn't it? It's by knici_icons and I wish I could do things so lovely.

14th-May-2008 08:16 pm (UTC)

nnwest

Ah! You've highlighed the flaw in my original post. I meant to talk about definitive fanfic stories/authors. :D

But you are entirely correct. This is a universe that can accomodate any story and appeals to a hugely diverse group of fans! Even limiting ourselves to the hundreds of 'official' releases, no group of fans can point to the definitive stories! Throw in all the people ficcing, not at chance!

But what happens if we limit our scope to a much smaller aspect, say Torchwood or SJA fanfic? Both shows have only a paltry handful of official releases compared to DW. Is it then possible to point out the defining, ground-shaking, shining-tower of a story? Or does the crushing weight of the parent universe impede that?

14th-May-2008 08:25 pm (UTC)

britgeekgrrl

A definitive DW fan story? Oh, damn, I don't think it would be possible to identify that - but if you want to try it, I'd be keen to see the results. I suppose the formerly-G1 forums would be the place to start... ;)

And, alas, I read only a very, very narrow group of TW authors, and none at all for SJA fic, so I can't even begin to contribute, there...

14th-May-2008 08:35 pm (UTC)

nnwest

...the formerly-G1 forums would be the place to start...

Scary. ;)

That's the thing. Even though I started reading any TW fic I could get my hands on and I still read the fic rec'd to me, I still couldn't point to one single all-powerful awe-inspiring TW fic, even. If someone asked, I could point out several that were very good (

jadesfire2808's 'Sic Transit Tempus' series, for example, or

crystalshard's 'Constant As The Changing Weather'), but none that I would point at and say, if you never read any other TW fic, read this one! I simply can't do it. And what I'm getting from this discussion is, no one can!

14th-May-2008 08:13 pm (UTC)

dameruth

Could the DW universe's canon and history be so diverse/complicated/accommodating(?) that no definitive can be named or agreed upon?

That's where my money lies, honestly. The DW fanbase is so diverse now, with people watching for so many entirely different reasons, you're going to get a huge gap in opinion even on what makes a decent story, much less a fandom-defining one. Also, there are a lot of talented people exploring a lot of different facets. Some authors write beautiful canon-compliant stories that could be novelized episodes; some write fascinating, slightly-tweaked almost-canon (or "should be canon"); and still others take things completely off the rails and generate brilliantly inventive AU stories.

14th-May-2008 09:01 pm (UTC)

cyberducks

I don't think there is a general consensus of the Doctor Who story for the fandom as a whole.

And for TW even less so - I mean what else is there but gazillion of Jack and Ianto have sex stories? Which leaves those of us not into the ship totally on the outside.

My personal favourite Jack stories remain those by Saganami Dreams - her Jack pleases the Jack in my head.

The TW stories I have enjoyed the most are the Gen stories by

jadesfire2808, and some other talented writers on my flist - I really enjoyed that Jack/Gwen story you wrote before the show started - I remember that story fondly.

15th-May-2008 05:02 pm (UTC)

nnwest

I totally agree,

cantralian/Saganami Dreams' Jack is still one of my absolute favorites! Yes indeedy.

I'm not sure why we can't get more gen stories in TW. I mean, the slash is canon. They handed it to us, so there's no big need to explore it. (Of course, fandom thinks I'm totally wrong on that point and continues to explore it with relentless abandon.) The format lends itself well to all sorts of stories, but there is still very little gen... or even plotty slash! The SGA story I pointed out is actually very plotty slash--if it didn't contain the graphic bits, I'd classify it as gen because it's that plotty. Plotty slash--THAT'S TW! Why isn't there more of that type of fanfic in our fandom?

*blushes furiously at the compliment* Thank you!

15th-May-2008 12:24 am (UTC)

wendymr

Ask 200 Doctor Who/Torchwood fans to name their definitive fic/writer and you'd get 200 different answers. There's no such thing as consensus when it comes to something like this, because you're talking about such a lot of canon out there, so many different strands, especially including the spin-offs, and also so many different preferences. Do you prefer Classic or New Who? Do you see as definitive fic which focuses on adventures and danger, or that which focuses on characters and relationships? (Me, I'm the latter, and I'm the same when I watch episodes too. Think the 7-day war plot in The Doctor's Daughter was thin and barely credible, and that it ruined the episode? Well, I barely noticed that, because the character stuff had me glued).

Even among fans of particular Doctors, opinions vary widely. I love the Nine era. So do others on my flist. I disagree fundamentally with some on my flist about who writes Nine, and Nine/Rose, well - some of my flist love stories by certain authors whose work feels OOC to me. I'm very sure that there are readers of my work who would say the same about it. It's so much down to individual perception and interpretation.

And it's not all down to the fact that DW is such a diverse fandom. In my previous fandom, where there was only one accepted pairing, you'd equally get 200 different answers when asking people to nominate a 'definitive' fic. It's subjective preference, simple as that. My definitive fic will not be yours - and, to be honest, my definitive fic is likely to change from day to day, if not from hour to hour.

15th-May-2008 05:11 pm (UTC)

nnwest

*nods* It seems my answer is that the show itself is too diverse to have a 'type'. The fans more so!

My definitive fic will not be yours - and, to be honest, my definitive fic is likely to change from day to day, if not from hour to hour.

But I don't even have an hourly definitive. I can point out many, many stories that absolutely rock--I have a whole list!--but I couldn't pull out even a handful that I would stick the 'to really get this fandom you HAVE to read these' label on. None I would compare to that SGA fic or Due South's 'Hawks and Hands'. Seems from the answers I've been given, that it's okay that I don't. It's not just me! :D

15th-May-2008 01:14 am (UTC)

neadods

Too big, IMO. And more than that, too long-lived. The fans who were BNFs back in the day are gone, or moved on, or the fashion has changed.

15th-May-2008 05:16 pm (UTC)

nnwest

And the BNFs that didn't disappear completely into the mists of time now have the 'authorized' (or at least the 'vindicated') stamp on their work.

At least I now know why I'm justified in not being able to put a finger on the story. I'm not the only one!

16th-May-2008 12:50 am (UTC)

gwynevere1

Hi. Here from

who_daily. I can't think of a definitive Doctor Who story, but I'd nominate Trying to Communicate by

sam_storyteller (PG) as the definitive Torchwood story (so far). It's the infamous Team Torchwood vs. the LOLcat fic. It has 22 pages of comments, and 243 bookmarks on del.icio.us.

16th-May-2008 02:03 am (UTC)

nieded

I agree! This story doesn't really involve any serious plots, but it's definitely very well known. There are several Turchwad icons floating around, and the characterization is very real and hilarious.

16th-May-2008 05:26 pm (UTC)

nnwest

...and 243 bookmarks on del.icio.us.

Hmmm, including mine. It is a very good nomination, I grant you. Many, many people know of it--if someone says the lolcat-TW fic, others know exactly which story you mean... Not exactly the genre of fic I had in mind (I admit I was thinking epic and sweeping, something huge and grandiose and moving; comedy wasn't even on the radar), but it very well could be the TW fic right now! :D Good eye!

16th-May-2008 06:43 pm (UTC)

ibishtar

I think the biggest Doctor Who fan fic there is is

shenlo's 'The Ten Doctors' comic here:
http://www.shipsinker.com/wordpress/category/drwho/
Everyone in the DW Internet fandom has heard of it/read it/squees over each update/has it to thank for their Classic Who education.
Even professional Doctor Who writers have commented on it.

22nd-May-2008 08:01 pm (UTC) - re: Definitive stories for Doctor Who/Torchwood?

acciochocolate

I don't think that there can be, granted the length of the show over 40+ years, all the professional novels, audios, and other spin-offs, to get the fandom (well, the part that reads fanfics) to agree on the One True Story (OTS).

I could point to some very excellent writers on LJ, but that might depend on things like 'ships and authorial voices.

Back in the day, when fic was only published in fanzines, I might could have pointed to a few fics that I considered "definitive". But one man's meat is another man's poison.

So, no, I don't think that there can be the OTS for the DW fandom as a whole, simply because it is too large and diverse, and the story itself has changed so much over the years, and its own storyline doesn't exactly lend itself to a OTS.

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